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It's YOUR Code, Embrace It! Career Toolbox Podcast

July 07, 2020
Read time: 30 mins

Building codes are not sharp knives inspectors use to chop off the heads of contractors, they are books full of options for constructing safe and efficient buildings

"You can go a long way with a building inspector when you've shown that you've made an effort to be a professional in your business. We see the best and we see the worst of the people in this country trying to complete this construction. And so often we show up with our guards up."

—Glenn Mathewson, carpenter, building official, educator

00:24 Fernando Pagés: Welcome to ProTradeCraft's Career Toolbox. I'm Fernando Pagés and I'm here to help you turn your day job into a career. Today, we'll be speaking with Glenn Mathewson, Dean of the buildingcodecollege.com. Stay with me, you're gonna find this interview compelling and it may open a new avenue of interest for you in the laws of our industry, namely the Building Codes. Although a self-described nerd, Glenn began his construction career in the trenches, starting as a laborer and a carpenter's apprentice at age 19. He progressed quickly to framing homes as a subcontractor and later opened his own remodeling and deck construction company. During the Great Recession in 2005, Glenn packed up his tools and became a building, plumbing and mechanical inspector for the City of Westminster, Colorado.

01:23 FP: He grew there in his career as he had in the trades and eventually, earned the Master Code Professional Certification from the ICC. But his true love appeared a couple of years into a city work when he taught a building code class for a local lumber yard. Building Codes for Building Decks was the name of the course and it was an important topic, and thus, began a 13 years career of writing, teaching and consulting, at first moonlighting, and now, full-time. Glenn, welcome to the ProTradeCraft's Career Toolbox.

02:00 GM: Thanks, I'm glad to be here.

02:01 FP: Today, you run a building codes college, is this like a school for building inspectors or what's the profile of your students? 

02:08 GM: Well, it's called buildingcodecollege.com and the idea is it's really for everybody. There's been, for a long time, methods, and events, and service providers out there giving education to building inspectors, most of that's live education, but what I'm trying to do here is break out this education to the contractors and designers and homeowners, as well as your building inspectors and plan reviewers. But the idea is to know, is to bring in the entire construction industry and welcome them into learning code in a positive way, not just through failed inspections.

2:44 FP: So just by way of background, and I know it has a long history, what's the story of building codes? How long they have existed and why do they exist? 

02:53 GM: Well, everyone likes to talk about the Code of Hammurabi from 2000 BC as the first building code, but that's just kind of fun talk. Codes really started about the very end of the 1800s and the early 1900s by the Bureau of Fire Underwriters. It was insurance companies. When these cities and towns were burning down from poor wood construction practices, someone had to pay the bill. So it started from there and then it's just continued to snowball over the last hundred of years through various organizations that then later formed into what we have now as the International Code Council.

03:28 FP: Interesting. So, who writes our building codes now? Is it an insurance companies or who's writing the building codes? 

03:35 GM: Well, now, it's actually all handled through, what I think is a pretty amazing process that's hosted by the International Code Council, and basically, anybody can write a code proposal. There's not even an age limit. My 17-year-old daughter, if she had a great idea or maybe a bad idea, she just has an idea to share to the process, she can go online and it's all done online now so you can do it from the comfort of your home and put in your proposal. It goes through a number of different processes from there that take over a year and include two different hearings, but it's all transparent and it's all open to everybody.

04:17 FP: I confess that until I did a short stint as a building inspector back in 2008, I always thought of the building inspector on the job site as a cop, someone that I didn't really care for, I feared maybe, but not really respected. You have a whole different take. Tell us about a contractor's role in relating to the building inspector.

04:40 GM: Well, the way I see it, and I do know what you're saying. Unfortunately, in this industry of codes, a lot of the inspectors in the way they act and their mannerisms, lead people to having the feelings you had before. But my take in it is that a building inspector is really just another trade partner to the builder. The one doing the work and actually putting this together, quite frankly, they're the star of the show. And they're gonna hire designers, and they're gonna hire plumbers and framers, and all types of different subcontractors and trade partners to complete this work and really, the building inspector is just another one of those partners there. They're to help and be a part of the process. Unfortunately, they are looked at in a negative sense and I do have to blame the industry itself for some of the heavy-handedness that you see out there, but the inspector is just another person to help make the process smooth and to make the project safe and meet the standards our society expects.

05:42 FP: So what would be a good relationship to establish with the building inspector? If you were back now as a general contractor, how would you relate to that building inspector? Let's say he's a real SOB, how would you relate to him? 

05:55 GM: Well, one way would be through education. I would certainly not allow myself to feel at their mercy or feel belittled by them. What I've come to learn in being in the inspection and municipal building authority field for 15 years is that, these folks are just regular folks, these inspectors, and they have a lot of pressure on them to sort of be this expert out there with all the answers. Sometimes they'd feel insecure that they don't know all the answers and so they might have a tendency to bully around or not like to talk about the subject because quite frankly, they're not completely confident in what they're doing. I think that it helps to realize that they can't be expected to know everything. These code books have grown to enormous sizes and the codes are no longer just about life's safety, they're about society's expectations of the building environment. So, one way would be just understanding that they're just people doing their job, that they have a limit to what they know and they have a lot of expectations on them. And so speaking to them just normally as I would do another person with respect... The respect, I would speak to anybody. And then making sure that I myself have taken the responsibilities that I need to have to do my job well, and not just counting on them to be that guidance.

07:23 GM: You can go a long way with a building inspector when you can talk to talk and you've shown that you've made an effort to be a professional in your business. Building inspectors tend to see... We see the best and we see the worst of the people in this country trying to complete this construction and so often we show up with our guards up.

07:45 FP: I guess, a little like a cop that sees the worst in humanity almost on a daily basis, 'cause you're called out to deal with it so I guess there would be a little bit of a predisposition to expect the worse as a building inspector with all that you see.

08:00 GM: Yeah, and the other thing is making the inspector's job easier. Too often people aren't ready for inspection, or the job site is a mess, or dangerous, which makes it hard to do your job. It's hard to observe the construction when everything is filthy and there's half complete work around and left-over materials that you're trying to walk over and see past, as well as just having all your documentation in place, all your permit paperwork in place and having a smile on your face. And honestly, that can go a long way with providing comfort to that inspector, to get their job done well and to not feel like you're hiding something from them.

08:41 FP: Getting back to the building code itself, we always talk about the building code, but I know that we have an International Building Code and an International Residential Code. Why do we have two codes? 

08:54 GM: Well, they're different. The building code is gonna apply to all your commercial types of occupancy, your restaurants, your high-rise office buildings, your strip malls with the nail salon. And it's also gonna apply to a multi-family construction where you've got a lot of homeowners in their own private dwellings that are sharing one building with a lot of other homeowners. The Residential Code is gonna apply primarily to your single-family home. And the difference is that you can kinda see it in a nutshell, the building code speaks to larger buildings, generally, with a lot of different types of hazards that can be taking place in them, as well as different densities of people that might be there. A nightclub is gonna have a much higher density of human occupancy than a single-family home.

09:43 GM: Also comes into play in that is the familiarity of the building. In public buildings we're less familiar with our space and so we need to have more standardization and sort of a higher level of safety due to our lack of familiarity. And then the other thing with the building code comes up is our lack of control over other people's behaviors. In a multi-family apartment complex, you may be aware of the behaviors of people inside your home. Are people lighting candles? Are they getting drunk and making bad choices? You've got a little more control and familiarity over your safety, but when you're combined side-by-side with a whole lot of other families, and you're not sure what they're doing inside their homes, it creates a higher level of protection necessary for you.

10:27 GM: Whereas in the single-family home, these are our nests, these are our castles. They're very much our private places where we'd like to express our American freedom and so the rules are relaxed a little bit when you look at the IRC compared to the IBC, and it's for that freedom of design and freedom of your own space, as well as the increased familiarity.

10:50 FP: Now, I have always associated new building codes with higher costs and doors just slamming shut on favorite building techniques, but I know that codes also open some new doors. How do the code facilitate the use of new methods and materials that may come along that may actually prove advantageous? 

11:12 GM: I have to admit that as we continue in human progression, we learn that sometimes our past had mistakes. We have new disasters that occur and new hazards that show up, and they reveal the insufficiencies in some of our past choices and so indeed we do clean up the code by, if you will, tightening up and creating more regulation based on that, what's been learned. But indeed, the reason that we do modify the codes and revise them every three years, is specifically to keep up with society and to make sure that all these new materials, and standards, and methods of construction have an opportunity to be heard in the code modification process and to be heard at the hearings and to be considered into the code. This comes a lot through additional test standards. There's a whole industry in our country about testing different products and so first thing that usually happens is the product would be tested via either alternative testing, like you might see from ICC Evaluation Services, or through standardized testing from ASTM, or some of the other testing organizations out there, and that can first prove the validity of a product.

12:31 GM: Those products that often don't get specifically included in the code, but they'll be a reference to the test standard. And this keeps proprietary interest from being named in the code, rather than naming a type of material or type of product, often something will be named to a test standard or reference standard. And then that allows anybody that can create something that meets those standards to now find acceptance into the code. And then even when we don't have that, that complete standard written in the code or the type of product written in the code, everything can be looked at as, what's called an alternative means and method. There's a section in the chapter that specifically directs the building official to consider all the other variety and entrepreneurial ideas and new technologies, and look at them and see how do they compare to the prescriptive code? The prescriptive code, being the way it's written in the code, that, well, there's a performance that's associated with that prescriptive requirement.

13:32 GM: And so building officials are directed to evaluate other types of materials and designs and see if they are equivalent to that same performance. So through all those different ways, the code is very, very open to all of this progression and new technologies. Unfortunately, I think what the industry sees is, it's the people that create the barriers, it's the building official that is very closed-minded and what he believes or she believes will work, or quite frankly, wants their job to be very easy and doesn't wanna have to do the research or the evaluation and so we see a disconnect there. The code is very open to all of this, but sometimes the people administering it end up being the barrier. With that there's a little bit of interesting anecdote to mention is that, in the 2018 IRC, that section directing the building official to review and to look over alternative means and methods, there was a statement added that states that when the building official doesn't approve an alternative, they can no longer just do so without giving an answer or reason.

14:44 GM: They're directed to state in writing why they are not approving this alternative method of construction. And the idea is that, that's gonna put a little bit more responsibility on them to take it more seriously and not just give a passing no because they don't wanna consider a yes.

15:03 FP: I suppose that question has to be answered in a technical sense versus just simply, "In this community will not allow such a thing."

15:12 GM: Exactly, exactly. And that's what the building code modification process is for, is to give people a voice. And so there was a voice coming from the contractors and coming from the wider construction industry saying, "We're sick of getting the answer, not in my town." So now the building official is guided to actually have to provide a little more professional answer if the answer is no.

15:42 FP: In terms of that baseline code, what should builders know? What constitutes for you basic code literacy? 

15:49 GM: That's a tough question, 'cause honestly, when I think basic code literacy, I'm not thinking of a professional. Because quite frankly, I think a professional in this industry, whether that's designer, or a contractor, or even the building inspector and plan reviewers, this is the industry. Basic is something that really, probably, shouldn't go along with them. Basic code literacy would be better for the do-it-yourself or, that needs to learn just enough information to still have someone hold his hand through the process, and that's usually the building department. For a general contractor, I think that they have a duty to have more than just basic code literacy. A general contractor would be wise to have an overall understanding of the various systems that are involved in the house, often for plumbing and electrical and HVAC, they'll just kinda turn a blind eye and they'll let their professional subcontractors be the one to be completely in charge.

16:49 GM: I have a class that I teach to general contractors to help them understand the fundamentals of those big... Those three top sub-contractors so they have some pulse of what's going on. And then when you get to the individual trades person, again, I don't think that they should have a basic literacy. I think quite frankly, they are the ones that are actually putting together the construction, they should have a pretty significant understanding of the codes related to what they do. Think about it like... Imagine somebody selling firearms. There's laws related to selling firearms in our country. Well, wouldn't we expect someone we go and purchase a firearm from or someone that manufactures a firearm to have more than the basic literacy for the gun control regulations? And you could take that to any other. Somebody that's manufacturing cars, well, I hope they have more than a basic literacy of the federal government requirements for car manufacturing. So that can apply to any of those things.

17:53 GM: One thing that I think is important that I... To give you an answer, since I'm skirting around that a little bit, is the word approved. Because I see the word approved get misused a lot in marketing from various manufacturers. Anytime the code states something has to be approved, that means, by definition in chapter two, it means acceptable to the building official. So, nothing can be labeled as just universally approved through testing or engineering and that's what a lot of product manufacturers like to put on their boxes. And they lead contractors and trades people to believe that there's this universal approval for something that they're going to use and so that's something I always have to point out to folks that when it says approved in the code, it's prompting you to have a discussion with your local building department and see what is approved there. Because it's leaving a little bit of lack of uniformity in the code. And there's a good reason for that. But that would be a very basic bit of code literacy. I'd also encourage people to go over the defined terms in chapter two of any of the codes they're using, whether that's the Building Code or Residential Code, because chapter two is gonna define words in a very special way than the normal definition you see out there in the English language.

19:21 FP: Can you give us an example? An example from that word definition that could cause some confusion between a building inspector and a contractor, and maybe... I don't know if you're gonna append that with some mistakes that could have been avoided if the contractor had known or understood the code a little better than he or she did, maybe from your work as a building inspector.

19:43 GM: One that just pops up right from mind is the definition of a stair. When we think of a stair or a stairway, the average mind goes to a long stairway, walking up to the second floor of a house, or maybe halfway up to a landing. However, when you go to the code definition of a stairway or a stair, it is simply one change in elevation. So for a deck, for example, you can have one single step between a lower level deck and step up one step to an upper level deck. And so that single step is now a stairway, and that's going to include any of the other provisions that speak to stairways such as required illumination or required landing at the top and bottom, or required nosing or things of that sort. So that's one example that comes out. And then also I would say a very common one is the difference between a guard and a handrail. Very often I'll hear people refer to building the handrails around their deck.

20:47 GM: Well, those aren't handrails being built around the deck, those are actually guards being built around the deck. The guard is to protect from a high and elevated fall hazard, whereas a handrail would only be found going down a set of stairs or beside a ramp. And the handrail is very different. It's meant for the purposeful and intended grasp of that occupant to just assist them as they ascend or descend the stairway. And so people will often get guard and handrail mixed up, which then means they're not getting the codes. The codes that direct those two things are very different. Even though at the side of a stairway, you can have a handrail built into a guard, they're not the same thing. One of the things I like to say, I compare them to a peanut butter and jelly sandwich, and I say just because... I say that a peanut butter and jelly are two different things, even though they can be in the same sandwich. And that's sort of the same thing that happens with guards and handrails. They're two very different things, but they can still be designed into the same assembly besides stairs or a ramp.

21:53 FP: So for example, a guard rail could be capped with a 2 by 8 flat nailed onto the top of the posts, but if you use that as a handrail, it wouldn't be readily grippable and hence it may not meet code. Would that be an example? 

22:09 GM: That would be a really good example. And I'll have to poke a little fun at you. You said a guard rail. Well, technically, a guard rail isn't a thing, it's not recognized in the code. But that's another example of even in our conversation, and even I catch myself sometimes saying guard rail, and the code purged that term "rail" in the 2015 addition to make it very clear that it's just a guard, and it does not have to include a rail. A bench seat can be a guard. A built-in barbecue countertop at a deck can be a guard. A half wall could be a guard. So that's even another little thing and just a common language that can mislead folks to believing that the guard has to be that typical rail type of design. But indeed you're right, the guard down the stairway could have a flat cap on the top that's not able to be grasped by the average hand very easily, and then it could have an additional handrail put on the inside below that, and that would be the portion that's a handrail, or you could design the guard so that the top of the guard functions as a handrail. They can either be one in the same or a handrail attached to a guard.

23:25 FP: Interesting. I love my mistake. I usually don't learn from it, but thanks. It opened a whole new window, so good. Now this goes back to a question I asked a little bit earlier, and I wanna dig a little deeper is, I've always associated with new codes with costing me more money when building. Now, I wonder, could code knowledge save you money? And here, I don't mean by avoiding errors that then you have to re-construct something 'cause you built it wrong, but like a savvy builder can use the code to benefit the bottom line? 

23:56 GM: Well, absolutely, you can. There's a lot of variety in the code. One thing the code really tries well to do is give people choices. So there's not just one way or the highway, so to speak. So for example, where you design your headers or how you design your headers for an opening in a wall, or be it a door or a window, the past, we always... When I was a framer 20 years ago, we just nailed together as many plies of the header material, say a 2 by 10 as necessary to fill the wall. A 2 by 4 would get two plies and a 2 by 6 wall would get three. The code recognizes a single member as a header, or moving the header from above the window up into the floor joist cavity, where it takes the place of the rim joist, and your rim joist becomes a header now one piece of material rather than two.

24:47 GM: You can do things like, there's processes and methods for using insulation as your fire blocking, which surprises even building inspectors when I teach that in my classes, 'cause we're so used to seeing a 2 by 4 block or a wood structural panel or a piece of drywall in there as your fire block. But indeed, insulation in the right application and with the right products can both be your thermal envelope and at the same time knock out your fire blocking. There's also new additions that are coming in for the decks. Deck codes have expanded considerably in the last few years because, quite frankly, they weren't addressed in the code previously. And like the 2018 IRC brought forth the concept of a single ply deck beam, why nail two 2 by 10's together creating a moisture trap in-between for a very short spanning beam on your deck, perhaps around your stair landing, or even for just a small deck.

25:42 GM: So there's ways you can now use single ply beams. And then if you understand the code, you can understand the maximums of your spans and how you can size those spans. You understand how you can utilize things like beam cantilevers or joist cantilevers. And so again, with knowledge comes more opportunity and comes more choice for the builder. The builder that just waits for the inspector to tell them what to do, well, they're quite frankly just hearing what one inspector thinks should be done, where the code is gonna provide a lot more options.

26:16 FP: Sure. Especially with span tables, I've solved, many a problem, actually going back to the tables and saying that I could use a 2 by 8 of the right species in this case, instead of a 2 by 10 and accommodate things a little better. So you're right, the code provides many options. It's a great way to put it, in those options you can often find a better way. I have an unfair question now.

26:40 GM: Alright.

26:41 FP: If you went back to city work for a new city, a new city, and this was a laissez faire city, very lightly regulated, against regulation, and the mayor of the city didn't really like the idea of having a code official in the city, and he said to you, "Glenn, okay, I'll let you work here, but you only have three building codes, period. That's all I'm gonna allow." What would they be, and why? 

27:08 GM: Well, that's a tricky question. So let me see, as a careful observer that I am, I'll have to dissect your question a little bit. So first I'm gonna have to assume... 'Cause what people don't realize is building codes provide the requirements for simple things like a roof that doesn't leak, and an electrical service and heating facilities and a sewer and water system so that you can bring fresh water to the home and get the sewer water out, wall coverings, window covering. So obviously, if we just assume those... Like most Americans or most folks would not argue to those type of requirements for a building. So if I take out those basic necessity type of code provisions, and then I'd also have to narrow it down to what code. So if you say building code. Let's turn it into more of a residential code type of conversation as opposed to getting into the commercial code.

28:06 FP: Okay.

28:07 GM: It'll be very difficult. So if we narrow it down, assuming that we have the basic services for a house, and then assuming we're looking just at the building code portion now, not plumbing or mechanical. In my experience, I would say, first and foremost, egress windows in bedrooms. And I hate to use the term egress windows, because again, that's another one of those kind of definitions where common jargon, common language out there is egress window, but what the code refers to is an emergency escape and rescue opening. And that could be a window or an exterior door. Basically when we're sleeping, we have a delayed reaction to any hazards, and that hazard may have blocked our primary door coming out of the bedroom to the house.

28:55 GM: And so either an additional window or a door that leads to the exterior is an incredibly important safety feature. So I would first and foremost say an egress window at bedrooms, or in code language, an emergency escape and rescue opening. Doesn't quite roll off the tongue as easily. I'd have to say next, guards, guards at the side of raised floors. Because as much as I'm a trained observer, as I like to call myself as an inspector, I'm also capable of being distracted, of having a chat with somebody and maybe taking a few steps back or being focused on some place I'm going and not what's right down at my feet. And so I would think protection from the hazard of falling off of a second floor of a loft in a home or falling off of a deck, I think that's gonna be a critical code requirement just to protect those occupants, guards at the sides of raised floors.

29:54 GM: And then finally, fire. Fire is a huge hazard in our homes, and I address that with the egress window. If there's a fire in our home and we're awake and aware and we have the basic idea of at least one exterior door, again, I'm assuming we've already assumed that the market's gonna give people an exterior door from their home, then we're probably relatively protected or at least we have an awareness to get away from the fire. If we're sleeping and the fire occurs, we've got our egress window. But I would have to say, in my experience as a building inspector, I have seen the required drywall on the inside of garages protect the investment of a home and protect the lives inside of a home significantly. I've been to many fire jobs after the fire fighters were there, put out the fire. Fires very often do indeed start in garages, and I have seen that required dry wall completely protect the rest of the house from damage. And so all that had to be repaired was the drywall.

30:56 GM: And so protecting someone's home, that's our greatest investment. We do have insurances, but still, to lose all your personal possessions, to lose that space you have on this earth, beyond losing your life, obviously, but even if that were saved, I think that's something that's really worth protecting. So in a quick thought on it, I'm sure that there's plenty of other important ones that later I would look back and say, "Oh, I should have said that." I'd say those are gonna be important.

31:25 FP: So, a emergency exit, guards, so you don't inadvertently fall off your second storey, and a fire block or fire break between the garage and the house. It's funny, 'cause I went along with you on the first two, but I would have said smoke detectors as the third.

31:42 GM: Smoke detectors came through my mind, but again, having that, I think if I had to pick smoke detectors. If we can have the drywall in the garage, then we're restricting the spread, the rapid spread of that fire. And then if we can have the egress window from the bedroom, we have our way to get away from it in the delay. And the sad thing about smoke detectors is that the government can require people to have them, but if the people don't maintain them, they don't test them, they don't replace them, and my gosh, they don't change the batteries, then it just defeats itself. So many people in this code industry believe that the end-all safety is the enforcement of the codes on the free American people. Come to their house, force them of what they must do, and then leave. But I always say the most dangerous thing in a home is the occupant. So more than being a code enforcement officer, I would encourage that these folks work on being a code education officer.

32:43 GM: Because if you can require the smoke alarms but also educate and explain the importance of it, and if you have trust, where your citizens trust you and believe in what you're doing and are thankful for your services, well that's the way you're gonna protect them the most. So smoke alarms are too easily defeated by the lack of trust of the people to the codes.

33:09 FP: Fabulous. Now I'm glad of a second mistake. You're a very unique person, you make me happy to be wrong because what you provide in a way of new understanding is fabulous. Any parting words for our audience? Our listeners are basically people that are on the job working and aspiring to make a career out of the trades that they're spending their days now doing. Any parting words of wisdom? 

33:42 GM: Yeah, I definitely have parting words, I probably have a lot of parting words to go with this, but I think the first and foremost is that the code is everybody's code. It doesn't just belong to the code industry to be used as some sword to cut everybody's heads off. The code is for all of us to use to step up on and to make greater the work that we do out there. A contractor that understands the code and knows that it's theirs, they're gonna be more in charge of their construction, and they're gonna be more in charge of the quality, the safety, and the overall sufficiency of the work that their two hands are building. And so as opposed to counting on the building inspector to just take care of that for you. Quite frankly, the building inspector is a government employee, and as much as there are some great building inspectors out there, many, many great building inspectors out there, there are a lot of them that are just going through the motions of a job. They get to leave work at 5 o'clock every day, they get great benefits, it can be an easy job. That's why people sometimes take government jobs. And so it's important that contractors realize that they're there to assist them as a third party, as another set of eyes to help them make sure their project is done well, but that they should take a hold of it themselves.

35:00 GM: They should also understand the code is a bare baseline, and knowing where your baseline is, you know when you are building above that. And of course, I always encourage to be able to build above code if it's something that your client is desiring and they want to be able to have that additional investment. The code really belongs to the contractor. It belongs to all of us. And I also encourage contractors to get involved with their non-profit organizations that are related to their industry. If it's a home builder, that maybe that's the National Association of Home Building, if it's a deck builder, maybe it's the North American Deck and Railing Association, whatever it may be. If it's a plumber. There are trade associations for all of these industries, and those trade associations collect the voice and the experience and the knowledge and information that comes from actually installing plumbing, and that comes from actually having to build a house, and then they can bring that knowledge with representatives to the code change process, and they can put that voice in the creation of the code.

36:03 GM: And so those are many different things I would encourage, but it's overall just a positivity about it. Don't let one negative inspector with a bad day give you a negative opinion of the code as a whole.

36:17 FP: So by the way, Glenn, I've been on your website and I can recommend it highly. Anyone listening could get a free sample of one of Glenn's classes at his website at www.buildingcodecollege.com. I've watched two of them, Glenn, and they're very good. You have a very nice presentation, easy to understand, it's not at all dry. It's interesting, and it brings the code alive, not just in terms of reading legal jargon, what you should and shouldn't do, but rather it brings a code alive through an explanation of the why and how it applies. And so I think it's useful, it makes it very easy to remember what's otherwise pretty dry reading. So, excellent, excellent work that you're doing, I really, really appreciate it and it was great to have you on as a guest, Glenn.

37:11 GM: Yeah, thank you, I'm glad I got to be invited. And definitely, let everyone know that they can use the coupon code WELCOME, and they can take any one of the classes they pick for free.

37:21 FP: Wow! I might take you up on that coupon code myself. Okay, Glenn. Well, thank you so much for being a part of the ProTradeCraft Career Toolbox. I think you have some good homework now to do, our listeners always get a little bit of homework at the end of the session. One, you can go to Glenn's website and take a class for free using the coupon code WELCOME. Take a class in something that you do every day, I think deck building, whatever it is that you do, might be a really good introduction. I bet you'll learn some things and you walk away from that as a more educated builder and maybe even inspired to go deep into the code. And if you get into areas that you work on all the time like wall framing, go study the wall framing section. I bet you're gonna discover some things you didn't know. So that's your homework for this week.

38:11 FP: Career Toolbox is a production of SGC Horizon Media Network. I'm your host, Fernando Pagés, and the show is produced by Dan Morrison.

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